Giants in Turkey?

As a result of the Antalaya meeting Sequoia was planted in the Tarurus mountains of Turkey. Some of the background of this and how it connects to the meeting and what followed after the meeting is shown at this page.

The seeds
Kani Isik suggested 2006 Bill, I have a serios suggestion about sequoias: If you bring some sequoia seeds (especailly giants) with you for research purposes, we can grow them in a nursery (elevation about 1200 m) where Nebi is working. Then, we can plant the seedlings from them all over the Taurus montains and likely on Mnt Ararat. They will be one of the most spectacular memoirs of 2006 IUFRO meeting to be left to the next millenia!

Dag responded: Kani’s suggestion is excellent. What imagination! Mark the meeting for the foreseeable future by sowing some Sequoia seeds for trees which will grow into the next millennia! For a low input breeding program, what can be more efficient than increasing the breeding cycling time to 1000 years? Nebi can see to the seeding And to let Bill, your academic father, and one of the Worlds and sequoias lead druids, play an instrumental role in this by bringing the seeds and so initiate this millennia long event chain. Technosaur or not. But how to proceed to do this in a ceremonial way so it marks the meeting?

Bill responded to the idea

NICE IDEA. I HAVE TODAY E-MAILED THE PEOPLE AT BLODGETT TO SEE IF THEY HAVE SURPLUS SEEDS FROM THE WHITAKERS GROVE ON RED MOUNTAIN. IF NOT, I'LL TRY TO GET SOME ELSEWHERE.

Sequoia seeds were handed over at the opening speech by Bill from him to the Turkish hosts.
and what happened with the seeds....? They went to the Taurus mountains at two paths. One was sowing at Egedir and one large plantation is planned. and a smaller part were planted on more sites by the Lindgren family marking the ending of a forest genetic carrier. In that they the seeds met many partly symbolic purposes,

Background about Sequioa

As an introduction to Sequoia the following links may be helpful http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequoiadendron

There is a description of among other matters Sequoia in its natural setting at
http://www.bio.ilstu.edu/armstrong/bigtree/fieldtrip.htm

Frost resistent Sequoia in Germany
Message from Bill Libby 2006: MORE ON GIANT SEQUOIA. IN CALIFORNIA IT NATURALLY GROWS BETWEEN ABOUT 1000 AND 3000 METERS ELEVATION, AND IN MUCH OF THAT RANGE IN THE SIERRA NEVADA MOUNTAINS, IT HAS AS MUCH AS 10 METERS OF SNOW AROUND IT MOST WINTERS. OUR SURVEY OF WHERE IT DOES AND DOES NOT GROW IN EUROPE INDICATES -28c THE TEMPERATURE WHERE IT RUNS INTO TROUBLE. HOWEVER, RICHARD KLEINSCHMIT (JOCHEN'S DAD) GRAFTED SCIONS FROM TREES THAT HAD SURVIVED -28c OR LESS IN AT LEAST 5 DIFFERENT YEARS INTO 2 SEED ORCHARDS IN THE HARTZ MOUNTAINS AND AT ESCHERODE.....YOUR PHENOTYPIC MASS SELECTION, DAG. THESE ARE NOW BEARING SEEDS, ALTHOUGH I HAVE NOT HEARD WHETHER THEY ARE ANY MORE COLD TOLERANT. WELL, THEY OUGHT TO BE.........CHEERS, Bill Libby
I wrote 200903 the grandchild of Richard, Jörg Kleinschmit (who is also a forest geneticist) for current information. He replied:
here are two possible sources for material of Sequoiadendron, which have been showing to be frost tolerant under German conditions:
1.) The material, which was mentioned by Bill Libby was put together in a seed orchard. The material represents phenotypically selected Individuals across Germany growing under harsh conditions. This seed orchard produces seed but is not harvested regularly.
2.) The second possible source is based on experiments cited in:
GUINON, M.; LARSEN, J. B.; SPETHMANN, W. (1982) Frost resistance and early growth of Sequoiadendron giganteum seedlings of different origins Silvae Genetica 31(5-6): 173-178
Based on these experiments, my father collected single tree open pollinated seeds in those "provenances" which showed to be frost hardy under experimental conditions. This material was sown out and planted in 1988 on three different sites in Lower-Saxony and Schleswig Holstein in Germany. The material showed almost no failures due to frost. Thus the selection of a suitable provenance seemed to work well. These plantations have just been thinned. The most vital individuals produce seeds as well.
Both sources are to my knowledge the best possible "frost tolerant" ones.
Seed are not harvested on a regular base.
My doctorand Johan commented:
I saw some really nice trees in the Arboretum in the forest faculty in Göttingen. I didn't really get the impression that they were slow growers. During the 1940's all giant trees planted in Sweden, mainly in the south, died. If we believe in global warming, maybe the species can be worth planting again.

Why am I so interested in Sequoia plantings at Ararat?? Well, one reason maybe that Ararat in Turkish =Agri DAG (omitting some minor problems with Turkish letters IT cannot handle). I am Dag from the Swedish Agricultural University, thus “Agri-Dag”.

The ploy started when Bill thought that his student Kani once had planted Sequoia on Ararat. "KANI ISIK HAS (APPARENTLY SUCCESSFULLY) PLANTED SOME GIANT SEQUOIAS ON MT ARARAT. THAT SHOULD GIVE THE NEXT ARK SOME PROBLEMS...."

That triggered Dag to associate about Noah's Ark which stranded at Ararat. "Now it seems that Bill inspirated some Sequoia planting where and Bill remarked that this may cause trouble for the next ark. I commented to Nebi and he said that I would be welcome for a trip in the future to Ararat and why not bring my son also. So maybe our lives take an unexpected path:-)

1) When a visiting scientist in NZ 2003, I saw a cartoon on the board of Luigi Gea and it found its way to the cover of Run-Peng Weis thesis (about diversity)... (slide 19 in the powerpoint show under 2).

2) I had a speech in Finland, and I called it (inspirated by Wei thesis cover) arker-assisted-selection. This is funny only in Swenglish and Finnglish, which most people at Nordic meetings master, as EXCEL- "sheet" is "ark" in Swedish. .http://www.metla.fi/tapahtumat/2001/nordicgenetics/Dag_Lindgren.ppt

3) But Ark and Ararat tracks back longer than that in my family. To honor the 80th year birthday of my mothers-mothers-father July 17 1929 my grandmother (with her sisters as co-authors) wrote a thesis, a follow up of some of Darwin's ideas, which was animated at the occassion http://www.gronstenen.se/061/Slakt/Arternas_uppkomst/Arternas_ursprung.htm The story is: Noah sampled species in pairs for his ark. They were left to live unorganised in dark and dull conditions without much to do for a long time. What would logically be expected? Yes, whose who stepped out at Ararat were all types of bastards. Recombination is one of the cornerstones of evolution and that life was so successful after the Ark to repopulate earth is certainly partly a result of hybrid vigor.

Mount Ararat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Ararat

The Biblic Ark http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah%27s_Ark#After_the_flood

It is a family matter and a ploy and gimmick rather than science at this point, but I like to see it done!

The idea appeared as a result of a slip in Bill Libby's memory (Professor Libby is the Grand Old Man in the world on Sequoia), he thought where were some Sequoia plantings on the slope of Ararat he would be toured in connection with the low input meeting in Turkey a year ago. Well where were not, but the thought struck me: is this lack not something which should be repaired? In the opening cermony of the conference Bill handed over Sequoia seeds to the Turkish hosts and said something about ! the symbolism and how relevant! this was for a forest congress spearheading for the future. By this a chain was started which stretches 4000 years ahead in time (lifetime of Sequoia planting). We all want to build memorys. The major output of a major kingdom (Egypt) was devoted to give eternal life to one person, the pharao. Usually the grave was robbed but in a few cases the mummy made it to the Egyptian Museum in Kairo where it can be looked at 4000 years later. A more worthy monument might be 4000 year old trees? My newborn grandkid could plant a tree and 4000 years later the sonson....son (120 repeats) can stand at the tree and say that this was planted by my fathersfathers... father (120 repeats).

And why Ararat? Well, first it was the start of the thought. Another argument is that the name of the montain in Turkish is Agri-Dag, a challenge I have difficult to resist. There are a number of other arguments which I will not bore you with. The summit of Ararat is not a very friendly place. However, studying the old holy books (even the Islam books are valuable for this fact-finding mission) gives the information that the Mount Ararat summit is likely to be an incorrect translation of most initial texts and stories. The biblic "Ararat" refers to a large area, might be an old country. There are more hospitable sites for tree planting than the summit. We have not thought so far, but I guess places below 1800 meter with a climat which possible can support seqouia can be found. If I interpret my GoogleEarth right, where are forests at altitude 900 m some 15 km ! nor! th of the summit. Of course it is a large chance the plantation fails, but I thought of it as a funny family matter, we (me and my wife, our two kids and their spouses and offspring) would be together and strieve for a goal with a mix of surrealism, spiritualism, originality, futurism and realism. My experiences with Nebi as a host for a travel in Turkey (and a similar experience with RunPeng in the Pearl-River delta the spring before) also gave me the impression that for those guys is nothing impossible and they have friends everywhere and are enthusiastic to very large efforts to please me (othervise this would off course be completely unrealistic). I would feel perfectly happy if the trees survived 4000 years, the plans did not span longer than that and I have given reprodroduction rather little priority, the aim was not a seed tree stand!!

Finnvid gave me the finest gift a professor in forest genetic can possible dream about, a seed orchard was dedicated to me. Trees born in that seed orchard will be harvested 200 years ahead. Really long term!!! But imagine - when you understand what chronology we are taking about - this is still only 5% of the time span of the Sequoia thought!!

But circumstances has made made me abandon this Ararat plan. Our son and daughter get kids of their own, and a car rally (4000 km) with three todler grandkids in a rather unknown and maybe problematic environment may be too much to be enjoyable . And from a foreign political perspective, the outermost Eastern Turkey now seems more risky. The American parliament has voted that a genocide occured a century ago in Armenia, raising tensions. Turkey is preparing operations in Iraque and unpleasant fights are reported from the border area.

"If there are no sequoias planted on Mount Ararat, this is certainly the proper moment to remedy that awkward situation. Kani’s suggestion is excellent. What imagination! Mark the meeting for the foreseeable future by sowing some Sequoia seeds for trees which will grow into the next millennia! For a low input breeding program, what can be more efficient than increasing the breeding cycling time to 1000 years?

Nebi can see to the seeding. And to let Bill, your academic father, and one of the Worlds and sequoias lead druids, play an instrumental role in this by bringing the seeds and so initiate this millennia long event chain. Technosaur or not. But how to proceed to do this in a ceremonial way so it marks the meeting?"

After the meeting Dag continued to argue:

When taking a deeper jump into the theology I suspect that “Ararat” is probably a Biblic misconception (mistake in translation at some point in the editing of the Holy book). Ararat referred “initially” at that time to a larger area than the mountain, probably a small country. Probably milder spots can be found in that wider geographic area than if just referring to the massive itself. That would help in finding relevant home for the sequoia, even if we must admit that they will then not be much of an obstacle for the next Ark, as initially suggested by Bill.

Concerning adaptation to the cold, I thought on the matter in a NATO sponsored workshop at Iceland at the good old days of cold war and made some calculations supporting that a few generations natural selection will be enough (e.g. to change a southern Scots pine to a northern), I think I have to blow the dust from these calculations. But I have to wait for the next symposium on low input breeding whenever that takes place?

and got a reponse from Bill:

I am pretty convinced that if they can control the goats, giant sequoia will do at least OK and maybe very well between 1000 and 2000 m elevation in the Taurus Mountains above Antalya. If so, it will probably look better in 2,300 years than those remarkable Greek and Roman ruins we saw. The difference being that a 2,300 year old giant sequoia is only 2/3 to its maximum age, and is still self-repairing, while those stone structures, alas, are not.

Planting it on Mt. Agri-Dag or whatever its name is or was, it is a fun idea, and I hope somebody gets a few of them to there.

As for ability of at least some (maybe most) forest tree species to adapt to rapid climate change, I agree with Dag. The stands may look pretty ragged for a while, but I"ll bet most substantial populations of most species will successfully adapt and survive. That was an interesting part of last month's meeting in Antalya.

cheers, Bill Libby